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Abusive Language/Spray Rule Changes


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#21 Mr. Durden

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:46 PM

While I don't agree with the change, making it official is long overdue. It's more than confusing and frustrating having mods and admins not hand out punishments for apparent rule breakers.

 

That being said, I think that the change is a poor one. If nothing else, you have to draw the line somewhere. Drawing it on any language that can be considered bigoted [e.g. nigga, n***er, f*ggot] makes it a clean cut. Drawing the line between words like 'nigga' and 'n*gger' makes things difficult. Having such a large 'grey area' between acceptable and not-acceptable can become a very messy slippery slope. How do you draw the line at 'nigga', citing intent, while at the same time not allowing someone to call a friend 'f*aggot' jokingly, after all. 

 

I still consider this bigoted language anyways, and I'm sure there a lot of people who agree with me on this who play on our servers [members, regs, non-regs]. Not only that, but the benefits of allowing the use of the word 'nigga' seems to be nonexistent. There is nothing lost by removing it from the vocabulary of the community, and there is plenty gained. 


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Kind of a big deal.


#22 baby_eater

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Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:56 PM

I don't like when people are demeaning towards anyone. But, hey,not everyone is as nice as I can be.

 

So just laugh off my complaints? Block your complaints? And let them all keep harassing people? Let's keep allowing people to be here who use some words to harass people but ban people who use some different words that aren't harassing anyone. Why not work towards making this a nice place rather than just banning words for being words?


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#23 Godphase3

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:00 AM

To address any concerns that things will change because of this rule adjustment, I want to note once more that this is how we've been moderating the servers for several months now, almost half a year. We are simply codifying the established practices so that the community is better aware of our rules. This allows our moderating team to use their best judgement in some of the most common types of reports we get, and opens up what we believe to be a much fairer way of handling them. It's based on our collective day to day experiences actively looking at reports and server chat, doing our best to judge intent and harm, and what a fair and proportional way to respond to that is on our servers.

 

If people ever feel specifically targeted or harassed by any language we strongly encourage you to report it, as always, and look into such reports with extra scrutiny.


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#24 baby_eater

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:05 AM

It's all about that 'gray area' and how much is too much.  That's what I'm worried about.  Tits without nipples, Ass in the air without vajayjay, and context/intent....what makes what okay?  Acceptable to say 'what's up N*gg*' but not "what's up F*gg*t" ....it's NOT OK.  Neither of those should be acceptable in a community environment.  That's the point.   What makes one worse than the other in context?  Equality!  Please.  No one sounds cool saying either of those things in any context, imo.

 

These fringe cases have been questioned quite a bit already, I've pointed out more of them than any sane person would, and the admin team has the right response. Just don't be an asshole.


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#25 Deyanira

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:07 AM

No no, I know for a fact that there are/were Admins before now who would punish people for using the word "N*gga", but others that would not.  That was a matter of inconsistency and opinions from you all as Admins/Mods.   It wasn't handled the same.  When I asked for clarification about a week ago, I was told it was not allowed (by head admin).  Today, when I asked ;him again if that had changed, he said that changed in a meeting that you guys recently had.   (this was in response to GP3)


Edited by Deyanira, 20 August 2015 - 12:07 AM.

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#26 Draak

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:57 AM

Though it's nice to see that the staff are keeping people in the loop, I disagree with this "change". Sure, maybe the context is different, but it's still derived from the racial slur used way back when. 

 

I feel like this could easily be loop-holed by some people, and that some people may take it to the extreme, and use the word to the limit of acceptability. I have trust in the admins that they've thought of this sort of thing, and will handle !reports of this nature with the same regard as any other.

 

That said, for what I said above and other reasons stated by members, I'm not in support of this addition. If people feel comfortable saying it, however, and no one else takes offence (or can handle it appropriately if they do), that's their choice to make, and I'll respect it. It'll just require better policing by Snr. Members and Admins.


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#27 holymoley

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:48 AM

Well I guess I should stop reporting everytime i see the N word. Thanks for heads up..half a year ago :P


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#28 UberActivist

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 07:30 AM

IMO "Nigga and the n word aren't the same thing" should've ended this thread.


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#29 Deyanira

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 11:39 AM

You're completely missing the point @UberActivist.  And everyone's opinion matters, not just yours.  There are obviously other people in the community that feel like I do, as some of them have now posted as well.  And they have the right to voice their opinions, too.


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#30 Mr. Durden

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:14 PM

I feel like this could easily be loop-holed by some people, and that some people may take it to the extreme, and use the word to the limit of acceptability. 

 

This is one of my biggest concerns as well. Although not condoning / encouraging it's use officially, allowing it's use is more than enough encouragement for some people to use it to the farthest point of what is considered acceptable. People will always push boundaries and by making boundaries unclear and handled on a case-by-case basis, it opens the door for a lot of abuse. If people used 'nigga' a good deal already, those people will feel free to use it excessively now that the rules state that it's ok. 

 

I really expect the use of 'nigga' to increase quite a bit now that it's publicly known and stated officially that's it's use is ok, which creates even more of a problem for those of us who disagree with this change. If people were to only use it as much as they did before, it might not be quite as bad, but I doubt that will be the case. 


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Kind of a big deal.


#31 Sniper Noob

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 02:19 PM

Not a fan of this at all. In my opinion it's either all or none. Personally I don't care which it is, but trying to separate different words to determine what is/isn't offensive is asinine. People are offended by different things, so you either blanket-punish all potentially offensive words (f*gg*t, niggas, etc.) or you let people have at it. "Niggas" will always be one of those on-the-line words that does/doesn't offend people, so either err on the side of caution and disallow all of it, or allow any words to be said. Trying to split hairs is stupid and a complete waste of time.

 

Furthermore, I'd like to see changes like this be put more to the community rather than having a group of 10 people make decisions above our heads. I've seen many staff members say that they try to make an effort to interact more with the members of the community; how about including us in the making of the rules that will ultimately decide how our gameplay is moderated? The inconsistency with which this has been handled on servers isn't good either, and I don't see that changing given the obvious differences in opinion in this thread. 


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#32 Cheese

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 03:26 PM

I’d like to address a few concerns brought up here.

 

I dislike this change. 

 

You're setting yourself up for a sticky situation that has been avoided this entire time by disallowing the word. You're now going to have to judge things based on context rather than if a word has been said or not. Each admin will have their own personal view on context, and it turns into a mess when this happens because you'll have competing ideas on what is ok and what is not. 

 

--

 

I see no good coming of this change. What good does the Admin team see coming out of this?

 

Fridgeraider™, we have been operating this way for several months now. This is not at all an announcement stating a change in how we moderate our servers. This is an announcement clarifying that we’ve been moderating a certain way and have finally formalized that change in our rules.

 

 

No no, I know for a fact that there are/were Admins before now who would punish people for using the word "N*gga", but others that would not.  That was a matter of inconsistency and opinions from you all as Admins/Mods.   It wasn't handled the same.  When I asked for clarification about a week ago, I was told it was not allowed (by head admin).  Today, when I asked ;him again if that had changed, he said that changed in a meeting that you guys recently had.   (this was in response to GP3)

 

You are correct that there has been some inconsistency in how we’ve presented our rules, and that is why we’ve decided to formalize and discuss this change.

 

Under our current structure, the head admins mostly focus on behind the scenes work. They ensure that our servers are top quality and are running 24/7 with unique and regularly improved plugins. They also keep the website running and manage our finances.

 

The senior admin team is responsible for setting new policies, specifically. For several months now, the team has been consistent in how we’ve handled incoming reports of the use of nigga. The mods that have joined our team over the past several months know and practice these rules along with our more senior admins.

 

When you inquired about our abusive language policy to a head admin, Deyanira, he stated our official policy to you, which is great. Unfortunately, our official policy was not up-to-date with how we’ve been handling reports for the past several months, so we discussed and fixed that at our latest admin meeting.

 

We do revisit rules when we think they need to be revisited. As a whole, we weren't enforcing bans on this kind of thing for months and our servers have been just fine.  We're just updating the rules so they reflect the way the team has been issuing bans. Based on over 6 months of practice and experience with this policy and the fact that we've never had a better, more consistent and effective moderating team, I doubt anyone who didn't read this thread will even notice the difference.  In the unlikely event that we see issues arising out of this decision, we'll gladly revisit the topic.

 

Additionally, in the future we'll try to be a little more transparent about rule changes and allow community feedback before anything is officially set in place.
 
I hope that helps clarify some concerns.

Edited by Cheese, 20 August 2015 - 05:19 PM.

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#33 Lotso

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:05 PM

Everyone is arguing over whether or not this change is good, and I'm just sitting here groaning about how I'll need to update my "Rule-Breakers and You!" thread.


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#34 UberActivist

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 04:09 PM

You're completely missing the point @UberActivist.  And everyone's opinion matters, not just yours.  There are obviously other people in the community that feel like I do, as some of them have now posted as well.  And they have the right to voice their opinions, too.

I skimmed the thread this morning before going to school and everyone seems to be arguing the slippery slope or saying they're the same words. 

 

Also PLEASE don't put words in my mouth or put actions to my words. That annoys the heck out of me.

 

Had I said "FUCK EVERYONE WHO HAS OPINIONS MY OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE" your response might have been warranted, but I said nothing of the sort, just stated an opinion.


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#35 Deyanira

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 06:15 PM

 

You are correct that there has been some inconsistency in how we’ve presented our rules, and that is why we’ve decided to formalize and discuss this change.

@ Cheese , while I have read your post and I understand these things; I think you are still kind of missing the point.  @Sniper Pro's post above is exactly the point and I also think that @Fridgeraider™ and @Schellep9 get it.  But, I ran out of likes.  And I realize no matter what, some people are offended by silly things.  But, this isn't just a silly thing.  Basically, what @Sniper Pro says here:

People are offended by different things, so you either blanket-punish all potentially offensive words (f*gg*t, niggas, etc.) or you let people have at it. "Niggas" will always be one of those on-the-line words that does/doesn't offend people, so either err on the side of caution and disallow all of it, or allow any words to be said. Trying to split hairs is stupid and a complete waste of time.


Also, it was not only inconsitency in how you had presented your rules, it was inconsistent in how they were handled.  You were the only one always telling me it was fine (idk if maybe you were the only one receiving those particular requests or how it worked on the times you told me it was OK) while other admins/mods would still at least mention it to the person or handle it in a different way.  So, that's what led me to question the head admin then. 

I get that this is the thing now.  And I get that this is the direction that the community is running in.  I simply disagree with it (which is why I left).  But, your community is supporting your community.  They are also the ones playing on the servers, etc.  They should have input on this kind of thing, and now you've let it be known that they will in the future.

Maybe I'll lose friends because of my posts here or because I refuse to back down from my values in treating people with respect and equally, in a manner which is kind and loving.  Or even because I cared in the first place.  And it's okay if you or they dislike me for my opinion.  If that's the case, I'm sad by that.  But, then I was never valued in the first place.  

I've made my exit post.  I'm standing behind my personal values and I hope that others do as well.  I know my posts have been a pain in the ass to some; to others they have opened minds and eyes.  But, it's pointless for me to continue.
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#36 Naajj

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 06:55 PM

Isn't the entirety of admins dealing with harassment pretty much dependent on context?  You can offend and harass the hell out of someone without using any "bad" words that get noticed by some filter on the servers or whatever, and that's what the admins are for.  OR you could just be poking fun at someone you know, and if someone reports it because they think it's true harassment, the admins hopefully deal with it appropriately.  I don't see how one can have seemingly no problem with that kind of stuff, yet as soon as the word n**** is introduced, suddenly depending on context instead of just outright banning the word is an awful idea.

 

For the record, the only reason I ever reported people for using the word "nigga" is because I thought it was not allowed, not because I'm delusional and think it has the same meaning as "nigg*r".


Edited by Naajj, 20 August 2015 - 06:58 PM.

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#37 Jimmydabig

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 06:57 PM

Here's how I see it. First of all, we don't have rules against words that offend people, we have rules against bigotry. We're never going to be able to moderate everything that could possibly offend anyone, but bigotry is at least something we can work on defining and moderating. Some words are obviously not bigotry. Some words are obvious bigotry. Some words can be bigotry at times and not be bigotry at other times. When it comes to those words our policy has been to look at the context and make the best decision we can. I think that's a way more reasonable solution than a blanket ban on every word that could conceivably be used in bigotry.


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#38 Jask

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 07:33 PM

Doesn't this just give an excuse for people to use it in substitute?

 

I can't agree with the rule change at all regarding the language. Dey already put up a GREAT fight about it; it should be obvious why it's a stupid rule change. I'm not comfortable with this at all. It still feels offensive, and it sure as hell can and will be used offensively.


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#39 tvpig

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 07:39 PM

While I don't completely agree with the changes myself, I can see the reasonableness of it. I can call someone a donkey ass and they could be offended, it's not exactly aimed at a race/sex/etc unless you count donkeys themselves whom can't play computer games, or those who identify as a donkey (sorry to anyone that does tongue.png)

So I guess if you look at it that way you can't justify putting a blanket rule on "donkey ass" the same as if the 'n' word is used as purely a normal address.

Example of normal address: "Wassup donkey ass XD"

Example of insult/harassment: "You suck, you're such a donkey ass"

Example of bigotry; "Get out of here you donkey ass"

 

Edit/addition: I would say for anyone who does not like it the best thing to do to keep people from getting away with using it in a derogative way would be to report anyone who uses it and leave the actual decision part to the admins who know what they are looking for.


Edited by tvpig, 20 August 2015 - 07:41 PM.

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#40 Brudda

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 08:18 PM

Edit/addition: I would say for anyone who does not like it the best thing to do to keep people from getting away with using it in a derogative way would be to report anyone who uses it and leave the actual decision part to the admins who know what they are looking for.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. If you can't tell if the use of nigga is supposed to be bigoted or not, report it and let a higher up handle that decision for you.


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