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Poll: How many points should victims lose? (38 member(s) have cast votes)

How many points should victims lose?

  1. Victim loses full points. (Current) (3 votes [8.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.11%

  2. Victim loses 3/4 points. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Victim loses 1/2 points. (14 votes [37.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.84%

  4. Victim loses 1/4 points. (5 votes [13.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.51%

  5. Victim loses no points. (15 votes [40.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.54%

Vote

#1 Bombz

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:06 AM

Some of you may not understand how GameME stats work so I will briefly give a description of how the points which determine your ranking are calculated.

 

The ranks of players you kill factor in to how many points you earn for that kill. This is similar (But not exactly the same) as the ELO rating system. You can view more on that here, if you want.

 

You gain more points for killing players who are of a much higher skill than you are. You lose more points when someone much more lowly ranked kills you. This generally balances things out and means you're not guaranteed to always have a play session where your points wind up positive. You may even lose points for that gaming session. This is good for a number of reasons, but it does have some downsides.

 

The pros are that the GameME system more accurately reflects skill. I italicize skill there because let's face it, these are pub servers full of casual players. There are many variables at work in a pub setting that doesn't really make it "skill based". That said, it's still a good way to measure points because it's not just a who plays the most list.

 

There are 5 options above to choose from and we'll let the community decide how to run it. In DB we left it to "Victims lose no points." and so it wound up as a "who plays the most" index.

 

I'm going to hang out in the middle and choose 1/2 points because I feel it strikes a nice balance. Though I have no problems at all with keeping it as it currently is.



#2 Kleptosporia

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

Oh god this would wipe away the friendly population

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#3 Critmoney

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:49 AM

Yea, I like the stats as they are.



#4 Alise

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:48 AM

There are many variables at work in a pub setting that doesn't really make it "skill based". That said, it's still a good way to measure points because it's not just a who plays the most list.

I agree that there are too many variables to accurately measure it  I'm currently ranked #2 but I don't consider myself "skilled" since I've only been playing TF2 for 2 months.  There are also times where the teams are heavily stacked in which the players are low ranked (new to the server) but actually have a lot of hours/competitive TF2 experience.  Reducing it to 1/4 would definitely be a good balance, especially in the long run where the points get higher.  It also doesn't penalize people much for demoknighting, market gardener/rocket jumping, or other derpy stuff.


Edited by Alise, 13 May 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#5 Becquerel

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:55 AM

I don't think the point measurement will every become anything more than a measurement of time, unless you seriously reconsider what constitutes a point. That is all I associate Rank on Gameme with. If I'm looking for more concrete stats, I will manually search for them



#6 Fridgeraider™

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

I don't agree that the points show anything for skill what so ever. Last night on payload I was running around with 5-7 dominations in a match that only had 10 players on the opposing team. My overall points still went down because the handful of people I died to were mostly people who have never played on our servers before and were nabbing me for 25 points a kill. They were decent players, but because of them having fresh stats I was penalized hugely for dieing to them. The points don't reflect players skill at all when things like that happen.

 

The people I was killing were only worth 5 points at most per kill, I would have had to maintain a 5:1 KDR in order just to keep my points stationary, other then gaining capture/defend points strictly looking at kills, in order to do so or to actually improve my stats I would have to refuse to do anything productive for the team. I couldn't push a cart for fears of being easily sniped, I'm not going to press forward on defense away from sentry cover because I don't want to die to some new player or scrub and lose everything I just earned in one death, and I may just hide in spawn at times until I felt I had enough teammates around me to use a meat shields while I pick people off.

 

I also lose out on being able to do some of the funner things in the game if I want to maintain my stats. No more holiday punch heavy (and everyone, even the victims, enjoy seeing me do this), no more demo knight, no more off classing and learning new classes ever again if I want to keep my stats going up. Typically I don't care about stats but if I'm going to get ran down to zero points because I'm trying to have a little side fun it aggravates me a lot.

 

Not to forget to mention I know how to abuse the system to run up in ranks during my off times, which I'm not going to openly talk about here to watch someone else do it.


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#7 Mir

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

The problem (in my opinion) with applying this system to judge skill is that we also have crits and spread enabled.  On a no crit/no spread server, its measuring straight DM.  Sure it doesn't take into account a random person connecting to your server for the first time who may be, idk, B4nny-you get destroyed and btw, you lost a ton of points, but whatever.  I can see the skill indexing there.

 

On the other hand, in a pub, half the time you may be doing great and turn a corner and eat a random crit from a random player who may have no skill at all, and then you get points punished bc tf2 is designed to be random and stupid sometimes.  Don't get me wrong, I love the random stupidity, but I think it hurts the whole "measuring skill" argument when you're just as likely to lose more points than you gained in an entire session, just by getting random crit across the map.  

 

Just my thoughts.  

 

(having a no crit/no spread with a variety of competitive maps with these stats enabled would be a lot of fun though) :D


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#8 Kleptosporia

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:18 PM

Heck yeah the random crits and weapon spread really hurt the "skill" we're trying to track. Every time I'm on a huge kill streak, I get killed by random crits >___> @ Lin punches people in the butthole because of random crits lol

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#9 Jimmydabig

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

I say whatever. I don't care about stat tracking anyway, so I plan to keep derping with the rocket jumper or the loch and lulz regardless. Is it possible to just not wieght points gained/lost by people's rank? It sounds like most of people's complaints stem from the fact that people get 25 points for killing them and they only get 1 point for killing anyone.

 

Also, we might consider making some objective based actions, capping a point, pushing the cart etc, worth a bunch of points so that every map doesn't turn into pure DM.


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#10 DragonAsh

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:59 PM

yeah... i tend to be a suicide addict when I go pyro.

 

I will start my crit phlog up, get an uber from a medic and run rampant. Generally killing a ton of people and taking damage after the uber is finished. Then a lucky crit comes by or I took enough damage that some low level player can one hit kill me from across the map.

 

Yeah, my fault for over extending.. but to negate all that work that most likely stopped a push dead in its tracks...? eww

 

 

I vote no penalty


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#11 The Fire

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:10 PM

I think half points sounds good. That way it stays a little competitive, but there's still room to fuck around.


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#12 Drake

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

I agree with Mir and Fridge. I find the point system to be nothing more than a KDR-based point system, and I don't really care about my points.  But to me, being "skilled" player involves two different things: Someone who is good at DM, and people who have good team-based gamesense, and do whatever they can to successfully push the objective. The way I see it, you're essentially rewarding pub stompers, who run around, mass up kills, and do nothing to contribute to the team.

 

The system really screws over a lot of classes and tactics, like scout and pyro. GameMe forces you to maintain a positive KDR, instead of pushing objectives, spychecking, trying to save someone, and doing other team-based things. You can be skilled and help your team, but in TF2, helping your team doesn't always equal kills, and it definitely doesn't always mean a positive KDR. 

 

The main problem I see with it is that you're punished heavily for situational or extraneous factors that you just can't avoid. Like being killed by a sentry after an uber defense. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Having unbalanced teams, or bad team composition, where you can't really go out and contribute well.  These hurt you FAR more in points and "skill" than it would in terms of the actual game. Factoring all else in, more support-based players have to essentially to go 1.5-1, if not higher to account for their deaths, or all the other random things that can happen.

 

And being "skilled", or turtling hard will never prevent you from dying to a random crit, or accidentally taking damage that wasn't meant for you. Just hope it's not from a lower-ranked player than you.

 

If people are that concerned about it being a true skill-based point system, the death penalty needs to be seriously lowered. I think 1/2 is a good balance.


Edited by Drake, 13 May 2013 - 02:44 PM.

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#13 Alise

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

I agree with Mir and Fridge. I find the point system to be nothing more than a KDR-based point system, and I don't really care about my points.  But to me, being "skilled" player involves two different things: Someone who is good at DM, and people who have good team-based gamesense, and do whatever they can to successfully push the objective. The way I see it, you're essentially rewarding pub stompers, who run around, mass up kills, and do nothing to contribute to the team.

 

The system really screws over a lot of classes and tactics, like scout and pyro. GameMe forces you to maintain a positive KDR, instead of pushing objectives, spychecking, trying to save someone, and doing other team-based things. You can be skilled and help your team, but in TF2, helping your team doesn't always equal kills, and it definitely doesn't always mean a positive KDR. 

 

The main problem I see with it is that you're punished heavily for situational or extraneous factors that you just can't avoid. Like being killed by a sentry after an uber defense. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Having unbalanced teams, or bad team composition, where you can't really go out and contribute well.  These hurt you FAR more in points and "skill" than it would in terms of the actual game. Factoring all else in, more support-based players have to essentially to go 1.5-1, if not higher to account for their deaths, or all the other random things that can happen.

 

And being "skilled", or turtling hard will never prevent you from dying to a random crit, or accidentally taking damage that wasn't meant for you. Just hope it's not from a lower-ranked player than you.

 

If people are that concerned about it being a true skill-based point system, the death penalty needs to be seriously lowered. I think 1/2 is a good balance.

 

36243-slow-clap-citizen-kane-orson-w-JFo

 

I'll gladly tank my overall KDR if it means the team will get a win.  Negative KDR win >>>>>> 7.0+ KDR loss.

 

Also lol @ people who brag about KDR in pubs.



#14 Mir

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:11 PM

yup.  Sometimes you've gotta pybro to keep the sentries alive.  You don't get much glory doing that, but you're helping the team.  Same with eating a crocket for the medic.  You gotta do what you gotta do.


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#15 Bombz

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:21 PM

The problem (in my opinion) with applying this system to judge skill is that we also have crits and spread enabled.  On a no crit/no spread server, its measuring straight DM.  Sure it doesn't take into account a random person connecting to your server for the first time who may be, idk, B4nny-you get destroyed and btw, you lost a ton of points, but whatever.  I can see the skill indexing there.

 

On the other hand, in a pub, half the time you may be doing great and turn a corner and eat a random crit from a random player who may have no skill at all, and then you get points punished bc tf2 is designed to be random and stupid sometimes.  Don't get me wrong, I love the random stupidity, but I think it hurts the whole "measuring skill" argument when you're just as likely to lose more points than you gained in an entire session, just by getting random crit across the map.  

 

Just my thoughts.  

 

(having a no crit/no spread with a variety of competitive maps with these stats enabled would be a lot of fun though) :D

 

I alluded to this in my post above.

 

because let's face it, these are pub servers full of casual players. There are many variables at work in a pub setting that doesn't really make it "skill based". That said, it's still a good way to measure points because it's not just a who plays the most list.
 

 

I'm not suggesting it's a great indicator of skill but it certainly is more accurate than putting the guy at the top who plays the most. I think a balanced middleground is 1/2 points lost or 1/4. I do not think it should be set to losing absolutely no points.



#16 TheOneandOnly_Racer_

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

I agree with Mir and Fridge. I find the point system to be nothing more than a KDR-based point system, and I don't really care about my points.  But to me, being "skilled" player involves two different things: Someone who is good at DM, and people who have good team-based gamesense, and do whatever they can to successfully push the objective. The way I see it, you're essentially rewarding pub stompers, who run around, mass up kills, and do nothing to contribute to the team.

 

The system really screws over a lot of classes and tactics, like scout and pyro. GameMe forces you to maintain a positive KDR, instead of pushing objectives, spychecking, trying to save someone, and doing other team-based things. You can be skilled and help your team, but in TF2, helping your team doesn't always equal kills, and it definitely doesn't always mean a positive KDR. 

 

The main problem I see with it is that you're punished heavily for situational or extraneous factors that you just can't avoid. Like being killed by a sentry after an uber defense. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Having unbalanced teams, or bad team composition, where you can't really go out and contribute well.  These hurt you FAR more in points and "skill" than it would in terms of the actual game. Factoring all else in, more support-based players have to essentially to go 1.5-1, if not higher to account for their deaths, or all the other random things that can happen.

 

And being "skilled", or turtling hard will never prevent you from dying to a random crit, or accidentally taking damage that wasn't meant for you. Just hope it's not from a lower-ranked player than you.

 

If people are that concerned about it being a true skill-based point system, the death penalty needs to be seriously lowered. I think 1/2 is a good balance.

 

I'm having trouble finding where I saw it, but GameMe isn't entirely KDR based. It's a lot more intricate. For instance, secondary weapon kills grant a larger point modifier than a primary kill. Melee gives more than secondary. IIRC Primary gives 1.5 modifier, secondary gives a 2 and a melee gives a 3 modifier. Some weapons give less of a modifier than other weapons. The Axtinguisher only gives a 2.5 modifier for example. Oddly though, the mailbox gives a full 3. I think the sniper rifle gives only a 1. Also Engineers get X points for building a building, but they also lose those points for having it destroyed. I want to say it's 5 points. Also Pyro airblasts that extinguish give X amount of points. It's far more than kdr.

 

EDIT : Found it. http://stats.firepow....com/actions/tf

It's not the thing I saw exactly, but it's damn close.


Edited by TheOneandOnly_Racer_, 13 May 2013 - 08:35 PM.

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#17 Fridgeraider™

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:27 PM

I just want to add that I have no issue with losing points in general, I just don't like losing such a large amount compared to what I have to do to gain it back.


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#18 holymoley

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:30 AM

Coming from a person who plays sniper this is some how ironic :P However I believe losing points will just make the people who care about points mad, most maps require a martyr or two to secure the point. I do miss the game me stats as you kill people (lol headshot in air bonus!) at the bottom right.

 

Still if we do have to lose points lower would be best in my opinion as every one dies in a pub unless they constantly ubered :P especially when teams get rolled hard.

 

(sleepy rambling sorry if makes no sence ;) )



#19 Lucienbel

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:00 PM

Just going to jump on and add my thoughts to some things other people have said already. I voted for 1/2 points myself, as I still do sort of agree that this system is a lot better than just the person who plays the most having the most. With that said, Drake really nailed it here. It's difficult for certain classes to keep the points up on this sort of system.

 

I know no one has mentioned it yet and probably because it's obvious, but people that main medic get seriously penalized for a system that works like this. The same goes for any class that may be more utility oriented rather than just kill oriented, though medic is likely the most exaggerated. With that said, the only time I use GameMe really is to go in and look at specific classes, specific maps, weapons, etc. I find it really interesting for those purposes.

 

So, I voted for 1/2 points because I still feel that the leader board may be a decent reference point. To me, you really have to go in and look at the specifics to get a true picture though, 



#20 ElfWord

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

I voted for a fourth points loss. Assuming the amount of points lost for being killed by someone fresh to the server is way more than those lost by someone relatively close in rank to you, I think 1/4th lost best minimizes the effect of noobs getting lucky kills while still providing a point loss to adjust rank by.


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